Minutes of the Employment Consultation Forum
Thursday 26 June 2008
Attendees
Don Macarthur - Co-chair Business Customer Unit
Sue Hunt – PAYE SA & NICs Product and Processes
Mike Shipp – PAYE SA & NICs Product and Processes
Joanne Miller – Customer Contact
Val Hennelly - PAYE SA & NICs Product and Processes
Andrew Watson - DWP
Alison Bainbridge – Business Customer Unit
Val Grant – Business Customer Unit
Karen Thomson – Co-chair IPP
Glen Collins – ACCA
Anne Redston – CIOT
Michael Templeman – IOD
John Hampton – CBI
Norman Green – BCS PSG
Linda Pullan – Payroll Alliance
Jackie Petherbridge – FSB
Ian Mills – CIOT
Andrew Dove – BASDA
Item 1 Apologies
Jackie Lockwood - HMRC
Ian Whyteside – AAT
Steve Dodd - HMRC
Tim Downes - HMRC
Ken Hurst - HMRC
Liz Longden - HMRC
Iain Scott-Shore - CBI
DM referred to the Poynter and IPCC reports that were issued on 25 June regarding data security within HMRC and explained the department’s determination to continue learning from the data losses. He noted that increased data security had led to delays in issuing data to employers as security had to be observed. He reported that HMRC regrets its failures, recognises the damage done, but will continue to build upon and maintain relationships with all its customers.
DM welcomed two new members to the Forum - Andrew Dove from BASDA who is replacing Dennis Keeling who has retired and Glen Collins who is replacing Bob Cope whose commitments mean he is unable to carry on.
Item 2 Minutes and Action Points from 12 March
The minutes of the meeting of 12 March were agreed.
The updated action points are attached with the minutes.
AP4 - DM queried whether it was still necessary to set up a workshop to consider the introduction of the UAP (Upper Accrual Point for NI). Workshop no longer thought necessary by attendees but NG pointed out that they know how to calculate UAP but not how to report on them.
Action Point – DM will arrange for something to be sent out on reporting UAPs
AP9 – Unclear as to whether BC had dealt with this so GC will follow it up
AP16 – Employer database being cleansed. 200,000 entries already removed from last year and possibly another 200,000 could still be removed.
Action Point – SH to provide written criteria to clarify when an employer needs to be on the database and will also provide instructions on how to reactivate dormant entries.
AP20 – Now suspect that the leaflet referred to is a discontinued historic copy that someone is still retaining and which may be targeted at an individual rather than an employer hence lack of reference to NMW Helpline.
Action Point – all members of Forum asked to report back should they come across any other NMW publication which does not refer to the NMW Helpline.
Item 3 Review of ECF and responses to survey (Karen Thomson)
- There were eight respondents in total.
- Overall, those who replied were happy with the format (and this was agreed at the Forum) but the co-chairs need to adhere more strictly to timings.
- Those attending the Forum were thought to provide a good representation of Employers etc and at the suggestion of MB, a representative will be attending in future for ATT.
- There was a mixture of opinion over how co-chair should rotate. Overall, it was felt that it should change every three years with the option of standing down after two years. As KT has been in place for a year now, the review should take place December 2009 with a view to having a new co-chair in the summer of 2010.
- All present were emphatic that the new co-chair should be chosen by the external reps. This was supported by DM.
- The question was raised whether the Forum needs to have some informal terms of reference for new members but it was agreed that the original TOR should remain in place.
Action Point – KT asked all Forum members to consider items for future agendas.
(JP requested an agenda item to last about ten minutes to discuss things that may crop up and are too late for the agenda – suggestion noted by the co-chair)
Item 4 – National Identity Scheme (Sarah Marshall and Punita Goodfellow - Home Office)
Home Office spoke to slides available from Val Grant
SM emphasised that all present should feel free to contact the speakers afterwards as the documents are still open for formal consultation until 30 June. However, Home Office is very keen to continue the dialogue over the coming months.
Action Point – Members to forward any comments on the consultation to:
New passports and Identity Cards will feature two biometrics –digital photo plus fingerprints. ID Cards will, in the early stages, have a published cost of £30.
JP queried whether this would be classed as a benefit in kind should an employer pay for these for their staff as a means of confirming ID.
Action Point – DM to query whether Employer paying for an ID card would constitute a benefit in kind.
The ID cards will provide employers with a more efficient way of checking out NI numbers as this will be confirmed before being shown on ID card. Some scepticism amongst members at this statement but MS pointed out that the new P45/P46 procedures will achieve a very high data match and together with the Student Loan Scheme which also now requires an NI number to apply for a loan, should reduce the amount of erroneous NI numbers.
SM pointed out that the ID Card Scheme is not a 100 per cent perfect but that the ID Scheme will have the highest standards of integrity applied to it. No compulsion on employers to use this as a means of employee’s identity but will provide a much greater assurance of a person’s identity.
SM suggested that there could be value in inviting UK Borders Agency to talk at the next Forum re immigration matters and that asking for questions in advance so that the speakers know what members would like to cover would be helpful.
Action Point - VG to consider asking for a speaker from UKBA for next meeting. Forum members to be asked for questions in advance.
Item 5 – Chancellor’s Announcement of 13 May and DPS (Ian Atkin HMRC)
HMRC explained how it intends to implement the above announcement which
has resulted in an increase in the Personal Allowance of £600 and
the reduction in Basic Rate Limit of £1200.
The implementation date is 7 September. All L codes will increase by 60
and all other codes stay the same until notified otherwise by HMRC (any
revised P6s will be issued from 24 August). There are 40 million code numbers
to change – mostly L suffix and most people will see an increase of
£60 in their pay in September and thereafter £10 per month.
IA hopeful that there will be a page on website within the next few weeks explaining what changes will mean. Employers can use this as a Q and A brief for any questions they may get from their employees.
On 23 July a Trailblazer letter will be issued to employers advising them what they need to do to get ready for 7 September.
In August a formal P7X (2) 2008 and a revised CD-ROM with updated guidance will be issued. HMRC is aware that some smaller employers may not have sufficient funds to make the refunds so a structured enquiry form is being introduced for employers to claim an advance.
For those taxed under the Simplified Deduction Scheme, new P12s will be issued and HMRC will deal with refunds as soon as employers send in the old P12s.
Details have been published in the June 24 edition of the Notes for Software Developers and there will be information for employers in the Employer Bulletin.
Data Provisioning Service
HMRC spoke to handout available from Val Grant.
A download will be available in November which will hopefully be an improvement. Employers will be required for testing. There will be two or three sessions in July in Accrington. Volunteers required by 3 July particularly from those who are particularly unhappy with the current DPS.
Action Point – IA to confirm whether deadline can be extended to 10 July – (updated – 10 July acceptable.)
Item 6 – PAYE End of Year (Sue Hunt HMRC)
EOY peak was managed via a peak management team. An event management group was created to manage any serious incidents but they did not need to convene.
There were no major issues during the period, small amounts of downtime were all publicised, most were planned and known about in advance and none affected all users or were for sustained periods of time.
There has been a ten per cent increase in e-filing this year with 32,000 employers filing using the new functionality in the CD ROM.
There has been a reduction in paper filing - data cleansing has been very helpful and processing already well ahead of last year. 90 per cent of P14s have been processed so far this year compared with 65 per cent last year. Incentive payments to small employers are at 77 per cent (last year 11 per cent).
It has been a very successful peak period and HMRC are preparing a report on their performance looking at what has gone well and what are the learning points. This will be issued to ECF members for comment. All present agreed that EOY was going well.
MS wanted a formal recording of thanks from HMRC to be noted to Forum members for helping the department understand the issues last year so that they could be built into the system this year.
Good positive comments are arising from the weekly phone calls with external stakeholders about EOY filing, and how well the process of in year filing of P45/P46 is going.
CARTER has carried out a survey which shows that 40 per cent of employers are unaware of the legislative changes coming in April 2009 requiring larger employers to file P45s and P46s online. Awareness of in year online changes appears disappointing resulting in HMRC reflecting upon their communication strategy, although the basis of the survey was not clear. The Forum was asked whether they were surprised by these figures – members thought 40 per cent was a bit high unless it was smaller employers who were surveyed as in year changes would not affect them yet – and they do not tend to take on or lose staff often. Forum members were asked if there was anything they could do to repeat or add to the communications to change this.
HMRC might consider a more prominent message when the revised CD ROM is issued.
Item 7 – Employment and Support Allowance (Fiona Maher and Mark Preston DWP)
DWP spoke to slides available from Val Grant.
ESA is being introduced on 27 October this year, initially for new claims only. Admin burdens on employers should be reduced as DWP will not ask them for information when SSP ends as it currently does when people go on to Incapacity Benefit.
DWP is working closely with HMRC to look at communications to employers re these changes. What further communication detail would employers require?
NG enquired whether new SSP1 now finalised. FM said it had not but progress would be notified through this Forum.
(Update received 1 July on progress of new SSP 1: DWP is waiting for regulations to clear and hope that this will be by the end of July. Once done the finalised copy will be distributed to contacts within HMRC to forward to all relevant colleagues)
JP volunteered to act as a communications point for DWP to get to small employers.
Action Point: VG to pass JP’s contact details to FM
Item 8 – Taxpayers’ Charter ( Ifeoma Obienu HMRC)
HMRC spoke to slides available from Val Grant.
The Department has launched a consultation document on the scope of the charter and would like feedback from employers, agents etc. Are there any other Forums that the members of this Forum would like the Charter Team to attend to discuss the scope of the document?
Action Point – Forum members to ask their members to feedback any comments before workshops with representative bodies commencing 8 September
Item 9 – Powers Review – Consultation on late filing and late payments penalties. (Rachel Button and Stephanie Allistone HMRC)
HMRC spoke to slides available from Val Grant.
RB mentioned two consultative documents published 19 June on Modernising Tax Administration:
- Meeting the obligations to file returns and pay on time.
- Interest – working towards a harmonised regime.
A series of consultations will be run during August and September.
Action Point – Employers reps to read the consultations and respond by 11 September
Item 10 – Employment Law Guidance (Carl Cresswell – BERR)
BERR spoke to slides available from Val Grant.
BERR’s aim is to reduce admin burdens on employers and try to ensure
all guidance for employers is brigaded together and on one web site.
Action Point – Employers Reps interested in becoming part of the User Group requested to feedback to VG.
Item 11 – Accelerated Solutions Environment Workshop
DM advised Forum about ASE workshop to be held 10 July .HMRC reps to consider how to improve HMRC service to employers. HMRC will seek views from Forum members fairly quickly after the event, on areas of improvement HMRC had identified. A meeting may be called in addition to those scheduled in September and December, to consider this topic alone.
AOB
- Top Ten Items that get in the way of employers following the regulations – Action Point - KT will issue a link for feedback from Forum members once survey methodology has been decided.
- Members would like agenda for ECF to be issued earlier with synopsis under each heading, stating what speaker requires from the Forum members so that they can come with questions/information.
- Possible agenda items for meeting in September – Med 3, UKBA
- Agenda items will have a synopsis of expected content to enable forum members to prepare for the meeting. These may be issued by individual emails until the final agenda is produced – the group agreed this was acceptable.
Next meeting Bush House 17 September 2008 10.30 am.
